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 " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .

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Rosamunda



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   23rd April 2012, 13:25

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I totally agree!
Philippe makes a disturbing interpretation, hysterical and wonderful!
Thanks, Philippe!!
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Artemis



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   23rd April 2012, 15:43


Thanks, Rosamunda.

I agree with the reviewer that the high point of the opera was the duet between Nerone and Lucano - disturbingly erotic when I saw it on stage - and this still comes through very strongly on the DVD.

A.
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Astarto



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   23rd April 2012, 20:09

That duet is the sheer genious of Monteverdi - it is always pretty daring, in every recording I have heard. Of course, these two, set free by the director, top everything. But I have often asked myself why Monteverdi uses the most steamy music in this duet, and not one of Nerone and Poppea or such. Probably he was just struck by an uncommon inspiration when he wrote this. And one must not forget that he was quite elderly already then. Interesting guy.

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Artemis



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   23rd April 2012, 21:33


Oddly, when I saw Cencic as Nerone recently, he sang this duet with the same Lucano (Matthias Vidal) and it just didn't have the same electric charge as in the Madrid production - largely because there was a lot of stage "business" with Nerone playing around with a naked statue (presumably of Poppea) which detracted from the duet. In the Glyndebourne production with Alice Coote as Nerone it comes over as erotic but with very, very heavy overtones of menace - in fact, after kissing Lucano, Nerone drowns him in the bath - but I think this duet will always be the focal point of any production of the opera.

Yes, amazing that Monteverdi managed to write such sensuous music in his old age - he must have had a very good memory!! Although, musicologists are always speculating about how much of the opera was actually written by Monteverdi ... many think parts were written by Cavalli and Benedetto Ferrari, amongst others ...

A.
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idubrov



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   24th April 2012, 04:53

The duet as performed by Philippe Jaroussky and Mathias Vidal is really quite remarkable - both sensual and sublime! I wouldn't doubt Monteverdi's authorship a minute though - the scene doesn't seem odd musically or dramatically; it's in perfect continuity with the rest of the opera!
BTW, here's an article analyzing the music of this scene in historical and musicological terms (although it seems a bit like stating the obvious to me wink ) -
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Artemis



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   24th April 2012, 07:47


Thanks, Idubrov. Interesting - although there is such a thing as almost analyzing something out of existence!! I agree with you about Monteverdi's authorship; the opera seems far too much of a piece to be a "cut and paste" job. For me, the only odd note in the opera is "Pur ti miro" (and that's what most of the musicological speculation is about).

A.
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idubrov



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   24th April 2012, 10:49

Oh, yes indeed! 'Pur ti miro' is virtually "dangling" at the very end of the opera as if it was attached there almost as an afterthought! Weird...
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Rosamunda



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   25th April 2012, 14:41

I think the same as idubrov, absolutely.
And I agree completely with this statement: : As McClary also points out, Foucault demonstrates that "the obsession always to talk — or sing — about sex...has the effect of continually stirring libidinal interests," (McClary 36).
Nero and Lucano are excited by some verses increasingly turned on, and both were swept up in the eroticism of the situation.

I know some interpretations of Nero, and this duo has each its own characteristics: Alice Coote (perverted), Richard Croft (ruthless, singing about the body of Seneca), David Daniels (pornographic), Ann Sofie Mutter (too fragile and implausible), and so on.

I prefer the version of Madrid. Plus it Philippe is Philippe and Mathias Vidal is a Lucano very sweet (beautiful voice, curls of lamb, very tender eyes and mouth) the scene is resolved with a huge natural and very spontaneous, sensual and tender. Delicious.

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Duffy



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   26th April 2012, 15:32

Dear Rosamunda, d'accord.
The two voices fit perfectly, breathtaking beautifully sung. Earcandy kiss
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Artaserse



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   27th April 2012, 07:20

Duffy,

and eye candy as well! wink

All gentlemen there in the boxes next to mine have immediately got field-glasses! censored

Spoiler:
 

________________________________
Händel for President!
Jaroussky pour le Ministre de la culture!
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carolineleiden



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   27th April 2012, 09:45

I have only HEARD the duet so far, and I must say: I did not detect the eroticism that was mentioned above. That is probably just a defect of mine, and maybe I will discover it when I get to see it as well, but only the music does not spell eroticism for me. Happy, yes, but sex? No.

I did see other productions, and there I saw suggestive gestures and looks that were supposed to spell depravity, but not very convincing. Acting depraved when you are a decent housefather in reality is apparently not that easy. smile

So I am very curious whether these two can pull it off without looking ridiculous.
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rikkapijemy



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   27th April 2012, 10:33

Wait and see
You will be " on the ass" ...oh pardon
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Rosamunda



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   27th April 2012, 11:01

Okay, dear Caroline, not ONLY the music. I agree with you.
The libretto of "L'incoronazione" is essential to understand the opera, and the verses that make up Nero and Lucano to praise the beauty of Poppea are the determinants of their erotic charge.
The rest is up to the dramatization of the scene and in this sense, I assure you is perfect, in my opinion.
Not forgetting, of course, the intrinsic characteristics of this Nero and this Lucano.
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idubrov



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   27th April 2012, 12:28

You definitely should get the DVD, dear carolineleiden! Definitely!!! The scene in question is absolutely gorgeous! The performances of both M Jaroussky and M Vidal are so subtle, so charged emotionally, so nuanced that the music is being perceived in a very acute and unequivocal way! I'm afraid, I'm not very good at expressing it though - SORRY! The more reason for you to actually watch the whole thing!!! wink
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Artemis



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   27th April 2012, 13:15


Yes, the DVD is a "must buy" and this particular duet is gorgeous but there is nothing equal to seeing/hearing it live - shivers down my spine and and neck-hairs standing on end on both occasions that I saw it in Madrid - I've only rarely seen anything so memorable; definitely something to tell the grandchildren about!

A.
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idubrov



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   27th April 2012, 13:52

Lucky you!!! kiss
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Artemis



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   27th April 2012, 14:03


Yes, I definitely count myself as blessed for having seen it!

A.
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Artaserse



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   27th April 2012, 17:53

Artemis,

I have been there, too...... and you´re completely right, it was
Quote :
shivers down my spine and and neck-hairs standing
indeed. I felt totally drunk at the end of performance, and my friend from Madrid tought ( for sure), that I´d gó crazy or faint ... air kiss 2

________________________________
Händel for President!
Jaroussky pour le Ministre de la culture!
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SJuli



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   27th April 2012, 20:02

I always wondered how it was that nobody fainted or got a heart attack... for me the sound only is almost enough!
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idubrov



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   28th April 2012, 02:26


My sentiment exactly! I actually started suspecting that something was wrong with ME... What a relief to know that you're not alone!
The sound of this voice gets right into your bones - makes you want to cry and to laugh at the same time!!! swoon THANK YOU all for sharing this rapture and this exaltation!!! give heart
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Rosamunda



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   28th April 2012, 08:51

I can not agree more with all you, sjuly, idubrov, Artemisa!
In addition to other moments more obvious, is irresistible to me the delicacy and tenderness with which Nero addressed the last two verses before electrifying denouement:

"Così le tue bellezze ..."

Yes, that sound is enough to lose his head.

There are also other nuances that complete the spell (if that were necessary!): Mathias is so into his role, his hand up and down the gentle head of Philippe in a way that seems unconscious and conveys a great deal of emotion .

Everything is perfect.
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Pilarddcc



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   28th April 2012, 10:56

OMG I must watch this opera as soon as possible swoon
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carolineleiden



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 01:00

Judging from the comments and the picture above it appears that two guys in golden sparkly dresses/costumes getting it on on stage were actually sexy, singing opera. Quite an accomplishment!


Last edited by carolineleiden on 29th April 2012, 08:56; edited 1 time in total
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Artemis



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 08:27


Well, I'd say "erotic" rather than "sexy" (there is a difference, you know!) and, believe it or not, we were talking about the MUSIC and superlative singing and interpretation of the two gentlemen concerned who, incidentally, were not wearing gold sparkly dresses that I recall!

A.
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carolineleiden



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 08:57

Erotic being the superlative, in my book. (Sexy is the innocent word for me)

I will wait and see. I really don't know what to expect now.
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Rosamunda



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 11:12

Well, dear Artemisa, the costumes were QUITE golden and QUITE brilliant (and ill-adapted to our slender Nero, except perhaps the vulture costume), but the moment when Philippe starts singing I forget all defects that may have this production.
Sorry for my bad English.
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Artemis



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 12:41


Caroline,

Ah, I see you amended your original post. Whole treatises could be written about the difference between sexy and erotic (and probably have been!). For me, the difference, generally and crudely put is that "sexy" = visual and obvious and "erotic" = more implied and of the imagination. Thus, for me, a male or female wandering around in skimpy, skin-tight clothing leaving little to the imagination would be sexy, but definitely NOT erotic!

Rosamunda,

I seem to remember that Philippe was wearing a pale yellow flowing robe for this particular duet and I thought it suited him well - but then, I would think that he looked good even if he appeared in a plastic bin liner! Matthias was wearing the sparkly ensemble. The singer I did feel sorry for in this production was Cencic who sang superbly well (as usual!) despite being hampered by a very unflattering costume - silver lamé blouson, combat trousers and "bovver" boots - not a good look - poor Maxie!

Your English is charming, btw.

A.
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Astarto



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 12:54


Ah, the costumes for "Poppea" ... I really like the bronze outfit PhJ is wearing on the cover of the dvd, but nothing else. Most of PhJ costumes are indeed too bulky, not made for him. And the gold lamée gown ... well, frankly, I think it is the most unflattering costume imaginable for a man. It´s a miracle how good PhJ still manages to look while wearing it. And the costume of Max - I personally get a major fit when I see a Roman from Antiquity strutting along in boots and with a zipper on his jacket! no Of course, that´s just me.

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Artemis



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 13:19


Astarto,

Yes, by my own definition, the gold lamé "pur ti miro" costumes are definitely NOT erotic - not a good look either! Ph.J. should have stuck to the bronze cover up ...

A.
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carolineleiden



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 13:36

Artemis: I agree with you on erotic vs sexy. Which is, for me, the reason that sexy is the innocent word and erotic the superlative.

I think sexy is a male thing, but women prefer eroticism. Men like women OUT of their jeans, and women prefer men still IN it, to put it in a nutshell. smile

I hate the gold lame dress. It's lovely material on Danielle Deniese, showing off al her curvy bits, but it unfortunately does the same for Philippe. When it comes to costumes, Max can take just about anything.( He is often weirder in his own clothes.)

And Rosamunda: no need to apologise for your english, it is just as cute as Philippes german, and we would'n't like him to change that either, wouldn't we?
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carolineleiden



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 14:12

About Monteverdi and why this duet between two male characters is steamier dan between a male and a female: For one he did not write Pur Ti Miro, so he just did one steamy duet.

He was a widower at a young age who raised his boys alone and never remarried. He was often really down at the bottom, economically and psychologically, and had to be rescued by his father many times. The working for his biggest employer almost killed him, he was driven to exhaustion, and begged and pleaded for a long time to be released from his service, but did write fantastic music. At the end of his life, after finally being released, he entered a monestary, was ordained a priest and died soon afterwards.

Doesn't strike me as a typical author of steamy duetti. All the more surprising.

Edit: typo's.


Last edited by carolineleiden on 29th April 2012, 16:46; edited 3 times in total
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tuffy942



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 16:12


affraid It is upsetting that so many operas are costumed by seemingly blind individuals. Even if the Nerone role was of a despotic or even cruel ruler still the first costume PJ was in recalled a black vulture .....not a good look. I have both the DVD and the CD and all in all the CD seems to me more erotic than the DVD...Exception: the duetto between Nerone and Lucano which is definitely combustible. They could have been wearing feathers and still it was hot!
Philippe's best look for me was in Niobe. But the Incoronazione was not helped by the costumes. And I totally agree about the erotic vs the sexy. However PJ is always both. give heart
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carolineleiden



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 16:37

Just SAW it too. shock

Steaming! The whole theatre must have been in a state of shock! I never imagined he could play a perverted bastard who was so terribly not in control of his urges and who was such a helpless toy in the hands of all the people surrounding him so well.

And he says he has trouble acting? I've seen worse actors get Oscars! Both of them, actually, and what a great director for inspiring them to do it like this. (Just with a bad taste in clothing...) The relationship Lucano-Nero was really portrayed excellent, spot on. Lucano the toyboy in his pyama's, visited while sleeping in his bedroom, with his head held firmly in Nero's crotch, but also the one taking the dominant role in both turning Nero on and then soothing him, playing with him and making Nero lose his selfcontrol while still maintaining his own. Nero may be the emperor, but the emperors lover calls the shots.

(Not an uncommon trait in royal lovers...remember Mme de Pompadour? )


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Rosamunda



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 18:37

Indeed, Carolina, the theater was in shock .
Like you. Or like me.
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carolineleiden



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 18:57

Still not over that kiss, really. surprised
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Pilarddcc



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 19:01

Dear all,

Finally I've just watched the steamed duetto

shock shockshockshockshockshock

That's my first impression, after several re-plays! I've never immagined something so explicit in opera. They were great actors too, both seemed so into it. BTW their kiss is much more appealling than the "polemic" Bésame mucho with Andueza secret

Now I understand your reactions, the music is beautiful but the performance is full of eroticism and electricity! First I wanted to be Poppea, but now I rather be Lucano swoon

Philippe looks so appealling and gorgeous, How on earth is that possible with that "dress" and make-up? Am I a pervert? Is this a new kind of paraphilia? censored
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carolineleiden



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 19:10

The attraction lies in the fact that Nero is helpless, dust in the wind, like a ship on the waves. Lucano can do anything to Nero, he gets all excited though he doesn't want to. He actually suffers and is enjoying it at the same time. Lucano is the one with the power, but Nero still loves him, so in the end he kisses him and guides him while they walk off the scene. There the roles shift again. Emotionally Nero is the dominant one, but in the sack, it is Lucano.

FRENCH kisses him mind you. No moviekiss there. He bloody opens his mouth and eats him! With a good TV screen you can probably see the saliva strands as well. Very Happy

Edit: No, I do not mean French=Philou. I mean open mouth kissing. Not-movie-kissing. A little one, I admit, just for taste.

For a stage kiss the open mouth would not have been necessary. But maybe it was just a reflex.( Nobody gives a kiss with a closed mouth, right?)

Well, never mind, as long as they enjoyed themselves. smile I'm not married to either one of them, so I can be liberal about this.





Last edited by carolineleiden on 30th April 2012, 11:46; edited 1 time in total
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Artemis



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 19:24


As I remember it, the Teatro Real audience were stunned into respectful silence - for once, the old cliché about hearing a pin drop was true.

A.
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carolineleiden



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 19:32

More like a cat got their tongue. Of all the things I was not expecting...and neither were they!

Well, I hope he enjoyed it. (Must have had a lot of explaining to do when he got back home... )
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Duffy



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 19:43

Both guys sung incredibly beautiful, by the way....only if this fact should have been forgotten.... lol
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carolineleiden



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 19:44

They sang? Never noticed.
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Pilarddcc



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 19:45

Dear Caroline devil You're such a bad girl!! This was a good kiss but a movie-kiss I don't see anything to be worried about if I were his partner ( inlove ) He seems a good-kisser blush but with those lips...Oh my...

However as well as you I'm not over that kiss... heat

Duffy: You're right, but you know where are only humans...flesh is weak
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Artemis



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 20:06

Pilar,

I didn't notice any French kissing either - I may be an old lady, but, like Monteverdi, I have a long memory ... devil (and excellent eyesight).

A.
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Pilarddcc



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 20:15

Cara Artemis,

I think Caroline meant the French=Philou, not a "French kiss" censored

lol lol however it would be a real shock...
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Rosamunda



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   29th April 2012, 21:15

I warn you, Carolina: that kiss (French or not French) lasts a long, long, long time. A barbarity of time.
Do not think that will end tonight or tomorrow. Cool

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carolineleiden



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   30th April 2012, 16:34

That kiss could prove extremely good for business. All EMI has to do is put that duet out on YouTube with as tag: "Jaroussky french kissing a guy on stage" and the DVD will be sold out over night....

Which is probably the reason they decided to do it in the first place. wink
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tuffy942



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   30th April 2012, 16:42

Ay....cantiam!!!! Love the kiss.....and I agree, a lot of explaining must have been done at home!!! My e phone's ring is the final Ay.......no one else has it. rofl
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Pilarddcc



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   30th April 2012, 16:51

Rosamunda: Yes, it lasts a lot inlove

Caroline: Great marketing idea!! I'm sure it would be a total success swoon

Tuffy: Great ring tone, but I'm afraid my heart is to weak for that...
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Duffy



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   30th April 2012, 22:26

I think the whole DVD is great. Just think of M-E Cencic or the wonderful Anna Bonitatibus, a fantastic voice and extremely touching in the role of the abandoned empress, full of despair and pain. And Mrs DeNiese, seductive and girlish at the same time (also a remarkable pair of lips by the way.... Cool) The duets between PhJ and her are gorgeous. Robert Burt as Arnalta, so funny .... a fine cast.
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Artemis



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PostSubject: Re: " L´Incoronazione di Poppea" in Madrid .   30th April 2012, 22:45


Thought Ana Quintans was great as Drusilla as well ...

A.
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